Foreign Minister Avramopoulos’s interview in the Athens daily “Kathimerini"
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: When it strikes the flag of populism and nationalism in Albania, the field is open for us to communicate.
Sunday, 10 March 2013
JOURNALIST: What are the foreign policy priorities?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: First of all, to raise Greece’s compromised stature and regain our credibility. To impart momentum to our national issues, with Greece strengthening its presence in its geopolitical and geostrategic environment through positions and initiatives, and as a factor for stability and security.
JOURNALIST: Dialogue with Turkey, and on the highest level. Is this the right time, with Greece in a weakened position?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: No one should make the mistake of underestimating Greece. Our history proves this. Greece continues to be one of the most developed economies in the world. We have one of the best defensive systems, and the per capita income of Greeks is many times that of the countries in our region. Yes, the crisis has set us back, but now that we are laying the foundations to rebuild our homeland, we are starting from a much higher position that that of our environs. Ask the millions of visitors from our neighbouring countries who come to Greece and know the reality of the situation. Hopefully our neighbours will at some point reach the level of our country, of the Greece that is being reborn. Because that will benefit the development of the whole region. The progress Turkey has made in recent years, for example, is a positive development, because it stabilizes the country and creates a better environment for cooperation than in the past.
JOURNALIST: But there are those who are circumspect about any dialogue with Turkey.
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Our era needs leaders with vision and courage; leaders who leave behind fear syndromes and opt for understanding over conflict. Who transform peoples’ desires into tangible cooperation towards progress and peace. We are fortunate to be talking about two Prime Ministers, Samaras and Erdogan, who each, at different times, with a strong mandate from our peoples, were called upon to turn the page in the history of our countries. They believe in Greek-Turkish cooperation and they have the strength and resolve to move ahead. With caution and guided strictly by international law, mutual understanding and respect between us and for our history. But the past is one thing, and history is another. The past should not cast its shadow over the history we want to write.
JOURNALIST: What is your assessment of the results of the Greek-Turkish Summit Meeting?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: It certainly didn’t resolve the chronic problems. But it changed the atmosphere perceptibly. With the signing of 25 agreements, it gave fresh momentum to the relations between the entrepreneurs and citizens of the two countries. Throughout this time, the use of the term “low policy” undercut the substance of the initiatives we are taking, which are anything but small in value.
We are talking about investments that create jobs, trade that gets the economy moving, tourism as a pillar of development, confronting illegal migration – a phenomenon with a negative impact on our societies. These are the issues we discussed. It is an achievement for Greek-Turkish relations. The Council is a tool we need to capitalize on.
JOURNALIST: But is anything changing in the country’s international policy?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: We are introducing a new principle. That of “honest diplomacy”. One might say that is a contradiction in terms. That “diplomacy” and “honesty” are incompatible terms. But plain speaking, sincerity and honesty count in international relations, leaving aside secret diplomacy and hypocrisy. The national interest is served by the truth, and this is appreciated even by those who don’t agree with you. But it brings results.
JOURNALIST: Has this principle been followed recently with Turkey?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Yes. And it is to the benefit of both countries for us to continue in the same spirit and with the same will. But it calls for a lot of work and caution. Sincerity, clear statements. Genuine will for cooperation and understanding, and at the same time safeguarding of national interest. Based on principles and values. Based on respect for international law and good neighbourly relations. Regional stability, security and development. It is in this spirit that we prepared the High Level Cooperation Council. In this spirit we will continue to develop our relations with Turkey.
JOURNALIST: Will Greece declare an exclusive economic zone?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: We are moving based on our planning and strategy, within the framework of the sovereign rights given to us by international law. No one should doubt our will and resolve to safeguard these. Greece’s “Gospel” is international law.
JOURNALIST: What did the move at the UN mean, and why did we make it now, after a delay, as the opposition says?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Our actions, like the submission of the note verbale to the UN, are carried out at the right time, based on national interest and maximizing the benefits to our country. This move ensures our national interests. It is an initiative that safeguards our sovereign rights in the region, as provided for by the Law of the Sea.
JOURNALIST: Have the exploratory talks perhaps lost their significance?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: The fact that over ten years and 54 meetings have gone by shows that there are substantial differences of opinion. But we are talking and looking for common ground, because both sides see how great the benefit will be from the delimitation of the continental shelf between us, from Evros to Kastelorizo. We encourage the continuation of the exploratory talks, and we hope they bear fruit.
JOURNALIST: Do you think Turkey will move ahead soon with exploration on the Greek continental shelf? And if so, how will Greece react?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: It will be good if things don’t go that far. Unilateral moves outside the framework of international law have shown not to help, and they should be avoided. I repeat: we will not accept actions that impinge on our sovereign rights. Such a development would have serious repercussions for our bilateral relations at a time when both sides are trying to create a framework for cooperation in many, many sectors. This is what our peoples want. This is the common will declared by the two Prime Ministers in Istanbul.
JOURNALIST: Turkey is protesting the issue of the Imams. What is Athens going to do?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: A month and a half ago, Ahmet set out for me their views on Lausanne, etc. And I set out ours. And at some point it will have to be understood that the Mufti is one thing, and the Ecumenical Patriarch – the spiritual leader of hundreds of millions of Christians throughout the world – is another. But I am sorry that, even today, there are those in Turkey who fear the word “Ecumenical” and what it symbolizes.
The law on preachers is an important step in support of the Muslim minority; better integration into society and emancipation from those who would keep them marginalized. It is based on the free will of the preachers themselves and improves the prospects of the younger generation, offering better access to education.
The Muslim minority is an intrinsic part of Greek society, and its rights are respected. The Greek state, based on the principles of equality before the law, listens to their views and responds to their needs on this and on any other issue. Always with respect for diversity. And we will continue to do so.
JOURNALIST: Does the Turkish side put special emphasis on the issues of building mosques and creating a cemetery for Muslims in Athens?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: This is not a bilateral issue with Turkey. It concerns the rights of Muslims living in Athens. It concerns the principles we represent as a state. Athens is the last European capital without a legal place of worship for its Muslim residents. This is unthinkable for the city that gave birth to Democracy. The decisions have been made and we are moving ahead to implementing them. We should not have delayed this long.
JOURNALIST: A few days ago you met with the UN Secretary General. Where do the negotiations on the Skopje issue stand?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Greece has shown that it wants and is working for a solution. I briefed the Secretary General on the initiatives we have taken. The negotiation process regained some momentum thanks to our proposal for the signing of a memorandum of understanding with Skopje. The majority of our partners acknowledge our constructive stance. This was pointed up by the EU’s unanimous decision in December, which called for the resolution of the name issue before the opening of negotiations. We are awaiting the new meeting Mr. Nimetz will convene. However, the political crisis and upcoming elections in Skopje mean we shouldn’t get our hopes up too high. The crisis confirmed what we said when the European Commission report came out this past October: It is dangerous to sweep problems under the carpet. For a functioning democracy of EU standards, it does not suffice to adopt laws that remain only on paper. The reforms have to be implemented. What we want is for stability and a functional democratic system to prevail in our neighbouring country.
JOURNALIST: Is there light at the end of the tunnel in our relations with Albania?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: When it strikes the flag of populism and nationalism, the field is open for us to communicate. That is Europe’s clear message. Our region – and this depends on us – is being called upon to rid itself of its Balkan past. The leaderships that return their countries to yesterday – distancing their peoples from their European perspective – bear responsibility.
JOURNALIST: Do you see prospects for fresh momentum on the Cyprus issue following Mr. Anastasiades assumption of the Presidency?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: I discussed the Cyprus issue a few days ago with the UN Secretary General, and last week we were visited by Mr. Kasoulidis. Tomorrow we will have President Anastasiades in Athens, on his first visit outside Cyprus. Obviously, President Anastasiades and his government do not have a magic wand for suddenly creating, on their own, the right climate for the immediate reopening of the negotiations. It will take time and good preparation for these negotiations to be of substance and bring results, from Cypriots for Cypriots.
As I said, the right climate has to be shaped, and this presupposes a shift in Eroglu’s intransigent stance. Don’t forget that the Cyprus issue is the key to the full normalization of Greek-Turkish relations. Its resolution would give a new dynamic to Turkey’s European perspective. The new Cypriot government has already shown that it has a plan and vision, in its decision to ask to participate in the NATO Partnership for Peace. This is an initiative that we support and that will certainly alter the state of affairs.
JOURNALIST: At a conference hosted by IHT and “Kathimerini”, the former U.S. ambassador to Azerbaijan, Matthew Bryza, said that Baku and the European Commission prefer Nabucco to the TAP for carrying natural gas to Europe.
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Mr. Bryza does not represent Baku or the Commission. Both the government of Azerbaijan and the European Commission were represented at the signing ceremony in Athens for the agreement on the TAP, and they recognize the comparative advantages this plan has over Nabucco. The messages we are getting are positive, though this doesn’t mean we are ignoring the fact that this is a competitive process. In the coming time, I plan to visit Baku, at the invitation of my counterpart, to continue the consultations we started a short time ago at the Munich Security Conference.
JOURNALIST: A final question that doesn’t concern diplomacy. Do you think the coalition government will last?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: All of us need to do everything we can to make it last and fulfil its mission. This government arose as a historic need. The struggle our people are mounting now is a national struggle. This is no time for party clashes.
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: First of all, to raise Greece’s compromised stature and regain our credibility. To impart momentum to our national issues, with Greece strengthening its presence in its geopolitical and geostrategic environment through positions and initiatives, and as a factor for stability and security.
JOURNALIST: Dialogue with Turkey, and on the highest level. Is this the right time, with Greece in a weakened position?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: No one should make the mistake of underestimating Greece. Our history proves this. Greece continues to be one of the most developed economies in the world. We have one of the best defensive systems, and the per capita income of Greeks is many times that of the countries in our region. Yes, the crisis has set us back, but now that we are laying the foundations to rebuild our homeland, we are starting from a much higher position that that of our environs. Ask the millions of visitors from our neighbouring countries who come to Greece and know the reality of the situation. Hopefully our neighbours will at some point reach the level of our country, of the Greece that is being reborn. Because that will benefit the development of the whole region. The progress Turkey has made in recent years, for example, is a positive development, because it stabilizes the country and creates a better environment for cooperation than in the past.
JOURNALIST: But there are those who are circumspect about any dialogue with Turkey.
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Our era needs leaders with vision and courage; leaders who leave behind fear syndromes and opt for understanding over conflict. Who transform peoples’ desires into tangible cooperation towards progress and peace. We are fortunate to be talking about two Prime Ministers, Samaras and Erdogan, who each, at different times, with a strong mandate from our peoples, were called upon to turn the page in the history of our countries. They believe in Greek-Turkish cooperation and they have the strength and resolve to move ahead. With caution and guided strictly by international law, mutual understanding and respect between us and for our history. But the past is one thing, and history is another. The past should not cast its shadow over the history we want to write.
JOURNALIST: What is your assessment of the results of the Greek-Turkish Summit Meeting?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: It certainly didn’t resolve the chronic problems. But it changed the atmosphere perceptibly. With the signing of 25 agreements, it gave fresh momentum to the relations between the entrepreneurs and citizens of the two countries. Throughout this time, the use of the term “low policy” undercut the substance of the initiatives we are taking, which are anything but small in value.
We are talking about investments that create jobs, trade that gets the economy moving, tourism as a pillar of development, confronting illegal migration – a phenomenon with a negative impact on our societies. These are the issues we discussed. It is an achievement for Greek-Turkish relations. The Council is a tool we need to capitalize on.
JOURNALIST: But is anything changing in the country’s international policy?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: We are introducing a new principle. That of “honest diplomacy”. One might say that is a contradiction in terms. That “diplomacy” and “honesty” are incompatible terms. But plain speaking, sincerity and honesty count in international relations, leaving aside secret diplomacy and hypocrisy. The national interest is served by the truth, and this is appreciated even by those who don’t agree with you. But it brings results.
JOURNALIST: Has this principle been followed recently with Turkey?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Yes. And it is to the benefit of both countries for us to continue in the same spirit and with the same will. But it calls for a lot of work and caution. Sincerity, clear statements. Genuine will for cooperation and understanding, and at the same time safeguarding of national interest. Based on principles and values. Based on respect for international law and good neighbourly relations. Regional stability, security and development. It is in this spirit that we prepared the High Level Cooperation Council. In this spirit we will continue to develop our relations with Turkey.
JOURNALIST: Will Greece declare an exclusive economic zone?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: We are moving based on our planning and strategy, within the framework of the sovereign rights given to us by international law. No one should doubt our will and resolve to safeguard these. Greece’s “Gospel” is international law.
JOURNALIST: What did the move at the UN mean, and why did we make it now, after a delay, as the opposition says?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Our actions, like the submission of the note verbale to the UN, are carried out at the right time, based on national interest and maximizing the benefits to our country. This move ensures our national interests. It is an initiative that safeguards our sovereign rights in the region, as provided for by the Law of the Sea.
JOURNALIST: Have the exploratory talks perhaps lost their significance?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: The fact that over ten years and 54 meetings have gone by shows that there are substantial differences of opinion. But we are talking and looking for common ground, because both sides see how great the benefit will be from the delimitation of the continental shelf between us, from Evros to Kastelorizo. We encourage the continuation of the exploratory talks, and we hope they bear fruit.
JOURNALIST: Do you think Turkey will move ahead soon with exploration on the Greek continental shelf? And if so, how will Greece react?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: It will be good if things don’t go that far. Unilateral moves outside the framework of international law have shown not to help, and they should be avoided. I repeat: we will not accept actions that impinge on our sovereign rights. Such a development would have serious repercussions for our bilateral relations at a time when both sides are trying to create a framework for cooperation in many, many sectors. This is what our peoples want. This is the common will declared by the two Prime Ministers in Istanbul.
JOURNALIST: Turkey is protesting the issue of the Imams. What is Athens going to do?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: A month and a half ago, Ahmet set out for me their views on Lausanne, etc. And I set out ours. And at some point it will have to be understood that the Mufti is one thing, and the Ecumenical Patriarch – the spiritual leader of hundreds of millions of Christians throughout the world – is another. But I am sorry that, even today, there are those in Turkey who fear the word “Ecumenical” and what it symbolizes.
The law on preachers is an important step in support of the Muslim minority; better integration into society and emancipation from those who would keep them marginalized. It is based on the free will of the preachers themselves and improves the prospects of the younger generation, offering better access to education.
The Muslim minority is an intrinsic part of Greek society, and its rights are respected. The Greek state, based on the principles of equality before the law, listens to their views and responds to their needs on this and on any other issue. Always with respect for diversity. And we will continue to do so.
JOURNALIST: Does the Turkish side put special emphasis on the issues of building mosques and creating a cemetery for Muslims in Athens?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: This is not a bilateral issue with Turkey. It concerns the rights of Muslims living in Athens. It concerns the principles we represent as a state. Athens is the last European capital without a legal place of worship for its Muslim residents. This is unthinkable for the city that gave birth to Democracy. The decisions have been made and we are moving ahead to implementing them. We should not have delayed this long.
JOURNALIST: A few days ago you met with the UN Secretary General. Where do the negotiations on the Skopje issue stand?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Greece has shown that it wants and is working for a solution. I briefed the Secretary General on the initiatives we have taken. The negotiation process regained some momentum thanks to our proposal for the signing of a memorandum of understanding with Skopje. The majority of our partners acknowledge our constructive stance. This was pointed up by the EU’s unanimous decision in December, which called for the resolution of the name issue before the opening of negotiations. We are awaiting the new meeting Mr. Nimetz will convene. However, the political crisis and upcoming elections in Skopje mean we shouldn’t get our hopes up too high. The crisis confirmed what we said when the European Commission report came out this past October: It is dangerous to sweep problems under the carpet. For a functioning democracy of EU standards, it does not suffice to adopt laws that remain only on paper. The reforms have to be implemented. What we want is for stability and a functional democratic system to prevail in our neighbouring country.
JOURNALIST: Is there light at the end of the tunnel in our relations with Albania?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: When it strikes the flag of populism and nationalism, the field is open for us to communicate. That is Europe’s clear message. Our region – and this depends on us – is being called upon to rid itself of its Balkan past. The leaderships that return their countries to yesterday – distancing their peoples from their European perspective – bear responsibility.
JOURNALIST: Do you see prospects for fresh momentum on the Cyprus issue following Mr. Anastasiades assumption of the Presidency?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: I discussed the Cyprus issue a few days ago with the UN Secretary General, and last week we were visited by Mr. Kasoulidis. Tomorrow we will have President Anastasiades in Athens, on his first visit outside Cyprus. Obviously, President Anastasiades and his government do not have a magic wand for suddenly creating, on their own, the right climate for the immediate reopening of the negotiations. It will take time and good preparation for these negotiations to be of substance and bring results, from Cypriots for Cypriots.
As I said, the right climate has to be shaped, and this presupposes a shift in Eroglu’s intransigent stance. Don’t forget that the Cyprus issue is the key to the full normalization of Greek-Turkish relations. Its resolution would give a new dynamic to Turkey’s European perspective. The new Cypriot government has already shown that it has a plan and vision, in its decision to ask to participate in the NATO Partnership for Peace. This is an initiative that we support and that will certainly alter the state of affairs.
JOURNALIST: At a conference hosted by IHT and “Kathimerini”, the former U.S. ambassador to Azerbaijan, Matthew Bryza, said that Baku and the European Commission prefer Nabucco to the TAP for carrying natural gas to Europe.
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: Mr. Bryza does not represent Baku or the Commission. Both the government of Azerbaijan and the European Commission were represented at the signing ceremony in Athens for the agreement on the TAP, and they recognize the comparative advantages this plan has over Nabucco. The messages we are getting are positive, though this doesn’t mean we are ignoring the fact that this is a competitive process. In the coming time, I plan to visit Baku, at the invitation of my counterpart, to continue the consultations we started a short time ago at the Munich Security Conference.
JOURNALIST: A final question that doesn’t concern diplomacy. Do you think the coalition government will last?
D. AVRAMOPOULOS: All of us need to do everything we can to make it last and fulfil its mission. This government arose as a historic need. The struggle our people are mounting now is a national struggle. This is no time for party clashes.
Foreign Ministry spokesman Gregory Delavekouras stated the following in
response to questions regarding articles published today in Turkish
dailies (Star and Sozcu) regarding the closing of terrorist training
camps in Greece:
“The Turkish newspapers’ claims are groundless and a product of the imagination. Terrorist training camps never opened or existed in Lavrio or anywhere else in Greece, so they can’t have been closed. It seems that there are those in Turkey who are irritated by the clear positions and good climate in Greek-Turkish relations evident from the joint press conference of the two Prime Ministers.”
“The Turkish newspapers’ claims are groundless and a product of the imagination. Terrorist training camps never opened or existed in Lavrio or anywhere else in Greece, so they can’t have been closed. It seems that there are those in Turkey who are irritated by the clear positions and good climate in Greek-Turkish relations evident from the joint press conference of the two Prime Ministers.”
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